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Poll
How best to deal with bin Laden?
Assassination 5%
Execution 10%
Imprisonment 30%
Torture 55%

Votes: 20

 Achieving Justice for bin Laden

 Author:  Topic:  Posted:
Oct 14, 2001
 Comments:
As the United States continues to wreak terrible vengeance upon Afganistan for Osama bin Laden's cowardly and despicable acts, we draw ever nearer to a decision upon which the fate of the world is balanced like a sumo wrestler on his tip-toes. This reckoning will come when bin Laden is within the power of the U.S.--an inevitability, as the civilized world cannot accept less than full victory in this war. Some woefully misguided analysts, including George W. Bush, have called for bin Laden's head on a silver platter. But making a martyr of bin Laden would be the worst mistake the U.S. could make.

The only moral course of action is to capture bin Laden and bring him to trial. Then the real work of justice begins.

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The consequences of killing Osama bin Laden would be disastrous. As a result of his success in attacking the "Great Satan," the Saudi terrorist is a hero to millions of Muslims around the world. The Taliban has already declared jihad, or holy war, upon the United States, signaling the beginning of new efforts to attack our homeland. The death of such an admired figure, far from halting this terrorism, would simply encourage greater violence in reaction--Newton's Third Law applied to global politics. Most dire of all, bin Laden's martyrdom would precipitate a political struggle likely ending the ascendancy of Muslim radicals in Pakistan, a nuclear power. World War III could be around the corner.

Bin Laden has dumped a can of gasoline on Uncle Sam; proponents of assassination advise lighting a match.

Cultural ignorance is ultimately at the root of the calls for bin Laden's assassination. Death in jihad, for a Muslim, means immediate ascension to a heaven of tasty fruit and nubile virgins. Bin Laden, or indeed any Muslim terrorist, can imagine no fate more agreeable than a glorious death in jihad. As Israel has learned from its numerous assassinations of terrorists, certain death only attracts Muslims like teenage girls to a Backstreet Boys concert.

Even if assassination were not so ill-advised for practical reasons, it would not be just. Following the biblical law of "an eye for an eye," the most just death for bin Laden would be collapsing a 110-story building on him approximately 6000 times. But this would no more be justice than it would be feasible. For when the World Trade Center collapsed, not only did thousands of Americans perish, but so too perished the loves, hopes, and dreams of countless others, whether they be the family and friends of the victims, the hundreds of thousands now waiting in unemployment lines, or those millions who suffered through the cancellation of their favored sporting events. Instead of healing the life-long wounds of 260 million Americans, killing bin Laden would trivialize our suffering by supposing that we have achieved some form of closure through his mere execution.

Clearly, then, our efforts must be focused on bringing bin Laden to trial in the United States. But after his conviction, we cannot execute him, or we again create a martyr; we might as well share a collective glass of poisoned Kool-Aid.

But can we allow bin Laden, the biggest mass-murderer in history, to rot away in the relative comfort of federal prison? Let us not forget that this terrorist has spent recent years of his life in luxurious Afgan caves. While it would not be as attractive an option as glorious death for Muslim fanatics, federal prison is a marked improvement over the conditions in, for example, the West Bank. Such a mild punishment is no punishment at all for most Muslims. We cannot afford to issue such an open invitation for terrorists to target America.

No, there is only one punishment for bin Laden both practical and just: torture.

There is no question that torture is the most--indeed, the only--efficacious deterrent for terrorism. As matters stand, the worst that a terrorist has to fear is failing in his mission and falling short of heaven. But what terrorist would attack the United States knowing that he would suffer decades of hell before reaching the bliss of paradise? More likely, he would seek quick gratification at the expense of Israel or local politicians.

Furthermore, torture comes closest to achieving justice for the thousands who died on September 11. Although bin Laden's punishment would be a pale shadow of the suffering of countless Americans, while he yet lives, his hoarse screams would serve as balm to the deep psychological wounds we all suffer. Could we say the same of a Delta Force bullet or a quick jab with a needle?

The many well-established methods of torture provide a wide array of options for the United States; among U.S. allies, Israel has a particularly deep reservoir of experience to draw upon. Yet we must ensure that the torture not be too physically taxing, risking bin Laden's untimely death. Therefore, however satisfying they might be for spectators, we must categorically rule out burning him at the stake, drawing and quartering, or flaying his skin from his body. Even breaking bones, stretching him on the rack, and burning his skin with hot pokers could have deleterious effects on his health, and should only be employed after consultation with government physicians. Consequently, relatively moderate physical torture must be supplemented by appropriate psychological measures. But there can be no doubt that the infliction of substantial suffering on bin Laden would be well within our power.

Unquestionably, many foreigners and leftists would question the morality of such measures. But these naive spectators must realize that we live in a different world than that of September 10. With the attacks on New York, the rules of engagement changed. We can no longer afford the luxury of seeing the world through rose-colored glasses of the framers of the Geneva Convention. We must find the courage and fortitude to do what must be done. A failure to act is to invite further tragedy.


wow... (5.00 / 1) (#2)
by Frithiof on Sun Oct 14th, 2001 at 07:57:53 PM PST
that was an excellent article. and for once, I actually agree with everything that was written in a story on the main page.

I'm sure that the torture of one of their most revered leaders will cause some people to think twice about joining up with whatever terrorist organizations there are out there.

I know it would make me take a more serious serious look at things.


-Frith

 
Two Ideas (5.00 / 1) (#3)
by egg troll on Sun Oct 14th, 2001 at 08:00:37 PM PST
A friend of mine who lives in Israel said members of her government advocate wrapping the terrorists corpse in a pigskink, to prevent him from entering Paradise. Furthermore they advocate killing members of the family of the terrorist.


Posting for the love of the baby Jesus....

If pigs could fly (5.00 / 2) (#4)
by Anonymous Reader on Sun Oct 14th, 2001 at 08:32:14 PM PST
This article may interest you.


Interesting (none / 0) (#5)
by egg troll on Sun Oct 14th, 2001 at 08:39:21 PM PST
I'm sure that wouldn't turn the Moslem world even more against us. I did like the part about playing pig noises on a loudspeaker though. Actually, what I really liked was this at the end:

Editor's note: Letters threatening physical harm to WorldNetDaily.com staffers will be forwarded to FBI Deputy Director Tom Pickard, who is heading the PENTTBOM investigation at the Special Information and Operation Center in Washington.

Yeah you can tell what a quality news institution that must be.


Posting for the love of the baby Jesus....

Editor's note (none / 0) (#6)
by zikzak on Sun Oct 14th, 2001 at 09:46:41 PM PST
As I'm sure you are aware, Adequacy has a very strict No Trolling policy. Your choice of a user name is a bit disturbing, but I will allow it to stand as I am fond of puns, no matter how bad they may be.

Your .sig, on the other hand, was totally inappropriate, and I have taken the liberty of changing it.

Thank you for your understanding.


No worries (none / 0) (#30)
by egg troll on Wed Oct 17th, 2001 at 12:00:33 PM PST
The people on adequacy are far too clever for me to troll. I just wanted to use the same nick as I have on Slashdot, where its users fall all over themselves rebutting a well-crafted troll.


Posting for the love of the baby Jesus....

Those Slashdot readers are too prideful (none / 0) (#31)
by Adam Rightmann on Wed Oct 17th, 2001 at 01:26:35 PM PST
from having read the Linux source, and thinking they are computer elites (much like those Protestants and they're King James Bible). When they see a trollish conflicting viewpoint, they rush to correct it.\

I'm glad you have decided to live with our no trolling policy, it makes the site so much better.


A. Rightmann

 
White Picket Fences (none / 0) (#7)
by Observer on Sun Oct 14th, 2001 at 10:45:16 PM PST
Personally, I'd like to see bin Laden working to pay the mortgage on a middle class United States house in one of the cities which have been so egregiously defiled. Of course, that would simply not work, as he'd probably starve himself to death first. It's unlikely that he'd even give half a shit about maintaining his family and financial stability, given his blatant dementia. Still, if he were to live as a plebeian, things might at least have the possibility of changing. As it stands now, he appears to me as a rich bastard no different than corporate whores in this country.

The pigskin and blood attacks would be rather ironic. They look at us as swine, so we use swine to defile them and cut them down to the same level that we're supposedly at. People around the world have their heads stuck in the sand. They don't deserve exemption.


bin laden (none / 0) (#14)
by NeoTomba on Mon Oct 15th, 2001 at 01:38:10 PM PST
You comment that bin Laden, being rich, wouldn't give a shit about his financial stability if he were middle class makes no fucking sense.

He hasn't been rich his whole life. He's good with money. He fucking earned it. Of course, if he were middle class again, he'd manage his money. He fucking did it before. Of course he'd do it again.

And as far as him living as a pleb changing anything, it'd probably make him worse. Typical Americans wouldn't teach him anything, except maybe how they're just as racist as he is.


Different Worlds (none / 0) (#17)
by Observer on Mon Oct 15th, 2001 at 06:20:34 PM PST
Does bin Laden live in squalid magnificence? Where are his cars, high class hos and diamond encrusted molars? If he truly is as dedicated to his ideals, then financial stability would not matter. Fundamentalist Islamics don't have such strong ties to earthly existence due to their religious belief, so they are not perturbed when family and friends die as we are. Money is simply a tool, so it will only be acquired out of necessity, won't it? Of course, that is again assuming (dangerous to assume, but hypothetical at this point) that they are as true to their faith as they would have us believe. Unless you can explain your opposing view to me in a reasonable manner, don't post.

How did bin Laden earn his money? Drug trafficking? Was it the massive inheritance that his father left him? What proves that he's good with money? The fact that he doesn't use any of it for purposes other than survival and weapons? Of course, that is an exemplary persuit and all citizen of the United States would do well to follow his lead.

Were I to drop you into a pit of hungry alligators and you somehow survive, would you be able to do it again? The financial world can be very similar. Note that I said can. Don't get all bent out of shape thinking that I am making an absolute blanket statement.

If bin Laden were to start over again, he'd have to scrape for the same crumbs that the lower and middle classes strive for. He is human.

Still, if he were to live as a plebeian, things might at least have the possibility of changing.

Was that an absolute statement? No, it wasn't, was it? Anything is possible, but I made no suggestion as to it being guaranteed or even more than marginally likely. Also note the very first word of my comment - Personally. I am not forcing my ideas upon you, so where is there reason to spit venom? Please, before you jump into the fray, observe and take rational action. I try to, so at least have the decency to attempt matching that. Now I've made my explanation. Make yours, but keep it civil.

I don't know what you've experienced, but the people I've made associations and friends with are very tolerant and understanding individuals. Typical Americans may be racist, but that doesn't mean a reasonably intelligent person won't dismiss them and draw his own conclusions. Still, I can't disagree with you. It would very probably make him even worse. His view of Americans would simply be reinforced and his inhuman actions justified by his rationale.

Regardless, no matter how wonderful bin Laden may be as a person, his actions (not even including the WTC/Pentagon atrocity) indicate a vile, contemptible mentality. Ours as a people is not to judge (but we do anyway), yet he does so in extreme.


how Bin got rich... (none / 0) (#18)
by nathan on Mon Oct 15th, 2001 at 07:39:25 PM PST
How did bin Laden earn his money? Drug trafficking?

No, he inherited a chunk of a big construction business.
--
Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

 
Fuck bin Laden. Literally. (5.00 / 1) (#8)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Oct 15th, 2001 at 02:52:43 AM PST
It is obvious that what bin Laden needs is to be on the receiving end of some TLC from the lonely young men currently doing time in any federal penitentary. Bin Laden should be put into the general population of our largest, most unruly federal prison. There, he should be under 24-hour guard to ensure none of the residents attempts to kill him. It will however, be open season on his ass. After a day or two, the terrorist cheiftan will bear a striking resemblance to goatse man (here I humbly and sincerely apologize to goatse man for mentioning him in the same sentence as bin Laden). Knowing that their fearless leader now walks with a limp, and has to sit on one of those donut-shaped hemmorhoid cushions because of the wear and tear on his anus, should make potential Jihadeers think twice about their choice of careers.


I strongly disagree. (none / 0) (#9)
by moriveth on Mon Oct 15th, 2001 at 03:38:07 AM PST
As I see it, there are a number of notable flaws in your suggested method of torture.

First, bin Laden might find he enjoys prison rape. After all, his rebellion from his Saudi family and hatred towards the libertine US might stem from repressed homosexuality; in such case, we would be giving him his heart's deepest desire.

Second, prison rape presents unacceptably high health risks for bin Laden, specifically AIDS and other STDs. I'm not saying it can't be done safely, but the risk/reward ratio is not favorable.

Third, while you might consider prison rape sufficient punishment for killing 6000 Americans and destroying the world economy, I think most Americans would disagree. We can--and should--do so much more.

Rape may well be part of any torture regimen, but in the end, it alone is woefully inadequate.


Having given the matter some thought... (1.00 / 1) (#21)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Oct 15th, 2001 at 09:30:11 PM PST
I agree with you. My original post was much too narrow-minded. It makes much more sense to include rape as one component of a balanced, imaginative regime of physical and psychological torture. I'd like to add that must say I highly value websites such as this one where thoughtful persons such as yourself take the time to engage in edifying discussions with total strangers who don't even bother logging in. Thank you.


Pig Skin (none / 0) (#34)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Oct 18th, 2001 at 02:57:02 PM PST
The way the US army used to handle Islamic terroists in the Phillipines in the aftermath of the Spanish American war (just over 100 yrs ago) is educational.

They hung them, wrapped in the skin of a freshly killed pig.

For this particular group of muslims, this meant that they died defiled, with a one way ticket to the deepest part of moslem hell.

This would be sufficient horror I think.

I originally found the idea here, about halfway down the page, in a letter to the website

Just for the full context:

During the pacification of the Philippine Islands 1900-1914 the majority of the bloodiest attacks were carried out by Moros... An Islamic confederation of tribes who did not want their lifestyle of Dacoitery, Piracy and Slavery changed. They had MOKERS... People who would work themselves into a religious fever with dreams of ISLAMIC Paradise, and Literally Run AMOK, killing everyone within reach. So inspired were they that you not only had to kill him, you had to push him over. It was MOKERS that forced the U.S. Army to adopt the .45 Colts Automatic Pistol M-1911. What stopped them was the tactic of Wrapping one of these MOKERS (After you capture him and yes it was possible) in the skin of a freshly killed pig and hanging him in Public view. The touch of the Pig Pollutes a believer so badly that he/She must spend 5 days in a Mosque cleansing and praying... To die in such a state gives a direct path to the deepest part of Islamic Hell.

For countries that know things and don't cooperate? Modify Tanker planes to carry Sterilized Pig Urine, and let them know that We will make every dwelling Uninhabitable (to the religious). There are several modifications of this... Dipping bullets in Lard for example, Writing Anti-Terrorist messages on bombs in Bacon Grease, the opportunities are endless. Some people say that this will offend the rest of ISLAM. I suspect not. From all reports a good portion of Islam is against the terrorists and wishes them in Hell as much as we do. Hmmm, One might consider dressing all Target buildings with pictures of Pigs, but that would go a bit too far. What I propose might look silly to a Westerner, However it is Deadly Serious and FRIGHTENING to a TRUE BELIEVER. As you Said, This goes beyond Justice, I say it is a matter of Honor and Blood. If we are to win this, we must strike at them with tactics that strike fear into them at a CULTURAL level. Brute force won't do it.


An interesting idea to spread around.


 
Hmm... (4.00 / 1) (#10)
by hauntedattics on Mon Oct 15th, 2001 at 08:48:23 AM PST
I find your proposition fascinating, even as I am generally against torture. I will give it some more thought.

In the meantime, has anyone ever noticed how creepy the Osama vision of heaven is? All those 'martyrs' have been promised that they'll basically get to deflower nubile virgins for eternity...but of course there's nothing in there about how the virgins feel about it. I guess this is in line with the hardline Islamist position that a woman who has been raped does not get to go to heaven...



stamp out illiteracy. (none / 0) (#24)
by linuxrulez on Tue Oct 16th, 2001 at 05:37:39 AM PST
In the meantime, has anyone ever noticed how creepy the Osama vision of heaven is?
Well, my understanding of it is pretty rudimentary(though not as rudimentary as yours. Oh no. Heavens no. I could never ever be that wrongheaded), but I believe that in the Islamic version of heaven, the "nubile virgins" aren't actually humans -- they're houris, kind of like angels that exist only for the purposes of sexual pleasure. Granted, this is equally creepy. There are male equivalents as well, to keep the ladies happy.

"If you are a good Muslim, when you make it to heaven, you will be pleasured eternally by the fembots!" I suppose it at least has the advantage of realism. The Christian heaven makes no provision for sexual satisfaction, and an eternity of celibacy never sounded that great to me. (Too much like high school.)


Oops... (none / 0) (#26)
by hauntedattics on Tue Oct 16th, 2001 at 08:46:10 AM PST
Didn't mean to insult. Most news organizations don't give much of the details on these things, so thanks for the clarification. It is fascinating that that version of heaven includes a nod to sexuality, while the Christian version does not.

Sorry about high school, dude. My high school years weren't exactly paradise either.



 
Ludovico and sex-change him! (none / 0) (#11)
by Well Adjusted Individual on Mon Oct 15th, 2001 at 12:19:08 PM PST
Do to Osama what was done to Alex in Clockwork Orange - everytime he has an evil thought, make him barf, turn him into a useless member of society. After that, submit him to a sex-change operation - maybe a nice arabian lady - and release him into the general population of another hardline muslim country, maybe even into Iran. Let him live his life as a woman in such a repressive state.

Better yet, allow him to live but hold his family in New York in a cage in Central Park for all to see and stone.
-- May the lord strike down those who are not rightous.

Osametta OK in Iran (none / 0) (#29)
by johnny ambiguous on Tue Oct 16th, 2001 at 07:38:52 PM PST
submit him to a sex-change operation - maybe a nice arabian lady - and release him into the general population of another hardline muslim country, maybe even into Iran.

Hey, really, Iran isn't so bad these days. Lots of worse places for women. Maybe Osametta nee Osama could even meet a nice Iranian guy through this Iranian personals web site and, you know, settle down. The big problem being that old Sunni vs. Shiite thing; even if the happy couple could overlook their differences, what about the in-laws?

Yours WDK - WKiernan@concentric.net


Getting into my Chevrolet Magic Fire, I drove slowly back to the office. - L. Rosen

 
Sex Change (none / 0) (#12)
by Dexter Descarte on Mon Oct 15th, 2001 at 12:23:36 PM PST
Have the SAS abduct him, airlift him to a fine western hospital, perform a sex change operation on him, dump his... uh, her ass back in Afghanistan. Budha-bing Budha-boom, let no one say America is not without a fine sense of ironic vengence.


Although I am a normal heterosexual male... (none / 0) (#13)
by moriveth on Mon Oct 15th, 2001 at 12:37:39 PM PST
...I do believe that sex change requires extensive hormone treatments. I do not know how long they must be administered post-operation, but if it is very long, they would be difficult to administer in Afganistan. Especially since (if my recollection is correct) male doctors may not treat female patients, and there is no telling how they would assess a post-op Osama-mama.

I do appreciate the delicious irony of the notion, of course.


 
I think you're missing the point (none / 0) (#15)
by femtoamp on Mon Oct 15th, 2001 at 02:24:42 PM PST
Torturing Bin Laden would
(a) reduce the US to the level of a Third World country, when what it needs is moral superiority.
(b) still create a martyr - believe me, the UK tried it on the IRA and it didn't work.

Anyway, the US record on this is ambiguous. Look at all the Nazis that were allowed to escape to places like Paraguay, or given good jobs in US defense, like Werner von Braun and his little bombs (killed 15000 people in the last phase of the war, but admittedly they were all just Brits, and a few USians misguided enough still to be in England.)

No. If he's captured and convicted, force him to live in a revived 70s commune in San Francisco, being fed on a diet of organic brown rice, with a solid diet of New Age ideas and Buddhism lite being fed to him by young women. And put something in his food to make his beard fall out. And put a webcam in there, with a fat fibre link right through to the Middle East.

As Jesus so nearly put it, love your enemies: it's the worst thing you can do to them.


Skewed moral code (none / 0) (#16)
by moriveth on Mon Oct 15th, 2001 at 05:31:10 PM PST
You argue that:
Torturing Bin Laden would reduce the US to the level of a Third World country, when what it needs is moral superiority.
Tell me, femtoamp, what kind of perverted moral code do you adhere to? You seemingly regard the murder of hundreds and starvation of thousands of desperate and impoverished innocents in Afganistan as minor compared to the infliction of moderate physical pain on a single mass murderer. Weak-minded liberals like you utterly disgust me.

Moral superiority? Switch on your TV set, sir. This war is not about moral superiority. This war is about victory, at any price. And it is victory that we must--will--achieve.


Skewed moral code (none / 0) (#22)
by femtoamp on Tue Oct 16th, 2001 at 12:20:09 AM PST
You right wing obsessives just don't get it, do you? You want victory. But victory at what price?
The British tortured and imprisoned IRA men in Northern Ireland. The result: new IRA operatives appeared. The Israelis have systematically mistreated the Palestinians. I don't exactly notice their victory over them. The KGB tortured Soviet dissidents. That's why the Soviet Union is so strong and free of internal disorder today. Oh, yes, and the British made widespread use of torture against dissent in India and what is now Pakistan, which is why they were able to hold on to their empire until the present day. [this is technically called irony]

In that liberal, sick-making book the Bible, there is the story of Samson. Samson was a Jewish terrorist who mass-murdered Palestinians. When they caught him, they blinded him and subjected him to verbal abuse and hard labor. P.S. It didn't stop Jewish aggression, and it is clearly suggested in the story that their tactics were flawed.

Israel, faced with Eichmann (=1000 Bin Ladens?) did not worse than hang him.

Knee jerk reactions and the representation of sadism as justifiable revenge are not signs of intellectual adequacy or moral strength. They are signs of powerlessness and frustration.


Biblical misreading (none / 0) (#23)
by moriveth on Tue Oct 16th, 2001 at 12:45:03 AM PST
In that liberal, sick-making book the Bible, there is the story of Samson. Samson was a Jewish terrorist who mass-murdered Palestinians. When they caught him, they blinded him and subjected him to verbal abuse and hard labor. P.S. It didn't stop Jewish aggression, and it is clearly suggested in the story that their tactics were flawed.
I find this Biblical "analysis" (obviously written by someone who never attended Sunday School, much less engaged in any kind of serious study) to be highly alarming.

Samson was waging a holy war to save the Israelites from the Philistines, who worshipped the false god Dagon. He was seduced away from God's path, which meant he lost his God-given strength to fight the worshippers of the false god. The story clearly implies that the ultimate fate of the Philistines had nothing to do with the "tactics" of the Philistines or further "terrorism" of the Jews. It was a simple matter of the strength of Samson's faith, and the enactment God's inexorable will.

Your hidden agenda seems to be to insinuate that God is, in fact, on the side of bin Laden and the terrorists, just as he was on the side of Samson and the Jews a few thousand years ago. But if you are a believer, surely you realize that a just God would never support the brutal, senseless killings of innocents. No religion would claim bin Laden is supported by God. Allah does not support bin Laden, nor does Jesus, nor does Yahweh.

As for your bizarre insistance that the physical suffering of a guilty individual is a tremendous moral evil beyond starving millions of Iraqi children...I truly have no response to such an appalling viewpoint.


Biblical misreading (none / 0) (#27)
by femtoamp on Tue Oct 16th, 2001 at 09:43:45 AM PST
Sorry, you really need to look at what this is about.

I didn't make any comment about relative evil. You seem to confuse a belief that torturing terrorists will not eliminate terrorism (which I hold) with some kind of moral relativism. Sorry, that's rubbish. It is perfectly possible to be deeply opposed to evil, and to want to see it stamped out, while having grave doubts about the effetiveness of the methods someone wants to employ.

As for Biblical scholarship...well, my Hebrew is rusty nowadays and my Greek is weak, but I _do_ have a degree in theology. By any modern standards, Samson was a terrorist. He killed palestinians (=philistines) because of his fundamentalist religious beliefs (just like OBL). He was captured by them and tortured, and eventually died. His people then put spin on the story and turned him into a hero martyr. Several thousand years later the fundamentalist Israelis are still beating seven sorts of shit out of the Palestinians. My case rests.


Biblical misreading (yet again) (none / 0) (#28)
by moriveth on Tue Oct 16th, 2001 at 10:18:20 AM PST
By any modern standards, Samson was a terrorist. He killed palestinians (=philistines) because of his fundamentalist religious beliefs (just like OBL). He was captured by them and tortured, and eventually died.
After pulling a building down upon the Philistines and himself. Are you suggesting that bin Laden has such God-given powers?

Let's face it--Muslims hate us, and jihad has been declared. So we bomb the crap out of them--like that's ever worked (Lybia? Sudan? Afganistan?). Are Muslims really going to get angrier over a tiny little bit of torture (after a trial, I should note) than over the murder of hundreds of thousands of their children? Of course not.

Bombing is the terrorist solution of the 20th century. It's time to try a fresh approach.


Hear hear! (none / 0) (#38)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Oct 22nd, 2001 at 03:53:23 AM PST
Finally a sound comment!

- PCLD


 
I'm not sure (none / 0) (#19)
by h on Mon Oct 15th, 2001 at 07:58:40 PM PST
You state "The death of such an admired figure, far from halting this terrorism, would simply encourage greater violence in reaction". I fail to see how the torture of "such an admired figure" wouldn't trigger repeated terrorist actions in outraged retaliation as well.

Of course the next wave of terrorists, mindful of Laden's fate, would be carrying cyanide pills, or just blow themselves to smithereens in crowded areas.

I hate to say it, but the only "cure" for terrorism is either the discrete elimination of all terrorists and people associated with them in any way whatsoever, or the removal of any reason for terrorists to target the state you're interested in protecting.

Both are, shall we say, long term propositions.

If you believe that torturing some murderer in a jail cell will DISCOURAGE other terrorists from attacking the state responsible, I suggest some more research.

-h


 
Why make a Martyr, make a pigherder (none / 0) (#25)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Oct 16th, 2001 at 08:13:20 AM PST
Why not place him on the lowest rung of a pig slop operation, where he is forced to take care of the creatures he most despises, not only pigs, but American pigs!!!!

It'd be very hard for Muslim fundamentalists to look up to a man who slops piggies.


 
Martyrdom (none / 0) (#32)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Oct 18th, 2001 at 09:15:31 AM PST
So bin Laden wants to be a martyr, huh?

Fine. Let him. Give him his precious martyrdom; I don't care. Long as he doesn't take anyone with him unwillingly, he can have it. Better than letting him live to kill, or influence killers, again.

That's the point. This is not about vengeance. This is about protecting the world from an exceedingly dangerous man who has proven time and time again that the only thing that will ever stop him is death.


 
Torture on PPV (none / 0) (#33)
by Janet Reno on Thu Oct 18th, 2001 at 11:08:07 AM PST
Darn straight Bin Laden and Mullah Omar deserve some innovative pain, but come on people, let's all take part in the killin' by offering the event on pay per view!
A list of pre-selected "procedures" could be chosen in a nationwide online vote, and then the funds from the TV special could be donated to the victims' families of Sept. 11.
And for good measure, the finishing touch would have to be a nice, old fashioned Levi Strauss-style drawing and quartering of each, and THEN the pigs could be brought in to clean up the mess.
It would bring us all back to the "good years" where people would gather around a barbecue and a big screen for the big event of a Tyson fight.



 
Torturing Bin Laden would work... (none / 0) (#35)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Oct 19th, 2001 at 07:08:22 AM PST
...just like watching US citizens being tortured in Libya would surely deter us from ever thinking of military attacking Libya ever again.

Also, using religious means (pig products and the likes) would also be an act of genious. Since the WTC attack - and indeed this entire conflict - is based on religious and cultural differences, widening that gap REALLY should solve the problem.

F*ck




WOW Anonymous (none / 0) (#36)
by Janet Reno on Fri Oct 19th, 2001 at 10:37:17 AM PST
Congrats for your insightful observations. In case you haven't noticed, the 6,000 dead folks in New York don't have the opportunity to speak for themselves, so it is up to the rest of the populace to do so on their behalf.
The ghastly attacks that these freaks perpetrated on the 11th have gone just a LITTLE farther than simply killing thousands of innocent people and shattering families; they pissed us off.
Now it is time for payback, and sorry for you in your cute, furry little world, there isn't any way we can make it pleasant.
It's called war, and the point is to win, you stupid dolt.
You, poor clueless soul, are the minority.


I pity you, "Janet". (none / 0) (#37)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Oct 22nd, 2001 at 03:45:33 AM PST
In fact, I pity all of us - if we poor clueless dolts are in minority (and yes, we are). I'm not against war, killing, torture, maiming or any other activity that is such a great part of our history and culture.

I AM, however, concerned over the general ignorance desplayed towards the underlying problems at hand. If you believe that Bin Laden is the problem, you are sadly naive. Bin Laden is only the surface - he's only this years T-shirt. Next year, someone else will emerge and release smallpox in the air condition system at LAX or blow up the Space Neadle with homemade C4. This will happen wether or not we get our petty revenge on Bin Laden.

Attacking a single symptom of a decease instead of the decease itself is what I - a poor clueless dolt - object to. But that's just me.

- PCLD


Come on (none / 0) (#39)
by Janet Reno on Tue Oct 23rd, 2001 at 01:30:05 PM PST
While the nation waits for Bin Laden's head on the proverbial silver platter, it goes unsaid that he is only the figurehead for a much more broad reaching series of faceless (and cowardly) terrorists whom have yet to surface and attempt to leave their mark on our society.
Now that you mention it, what ARE the underlying problems at hand? Too much freedom? Too many sport-utility vehicles? Brittany Spears? Give the masses on the East and West coasts a little more credit. Our populace isn't as ignorant as you're assuming.
I will be the first to agree that the disease is the problem, not the symptom. As our fearless leader has stated, we're in this for the long haul. Bin Laden is the first in a long line of stepping stones that (hopefully) have an end. What happens along the walk that our country and our military are taking will be seen.



 
osama? (none / 0) (#40)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed Nov 28th, 2001 at 07:55:10 PM PST
has anyone seen any proof that osama bin laden did it? if you have, what is the source? i bet the united states government. it is called propaganda. the united states want to take over afghanistan so that it can pipe oil from khazakstan to the indian ocean. best justification for overthrowing afghanistan? killing osama. stop think don't be a pawn.


 

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