Adequacy front page
Stories Diaries Polls Users
Google

Web Adequacy.org
Home About Topics Rejects Abortions
This is an archive site only. It is no longer maintained. You can not post comments. You can not make an account. Your email will not be read. Please read this page if you have questions.
Poll
Favorite "Joke" Religion
Discordianism 14%
The Church of the Subgenius 18%
Wicca 10%
The Church Of Three 0%
Mormonism 47%
Kibology 8%

Votes: 90

 Wicca and the Insult to Religion

 Author:  Topic:  Posted:
Mar 17, 2002
 Comments:
Take a look at this story. How about these ones? All accounts of average Americans being denied their Constitutional freedom of religion by being forbidden to express their religion. Ordinary Americans, sacked from their jobs and kicked out of their schools because their religious beliefs don't suit the narrow-minded Christian minority. This is an outrage, isn't it?

Well no. It isn't an outrage. If ordinary people had been persecuted for their sincerely held religious beliefs, that would be an outrage. But that isn't what happened. What happened is that some slacker teenagers made a fashion statement which was aimed at shocking ordinary decent people, then acted all surprised when it had the intended effect. It's time to face the truth; Wicca isn't a religion, and to compare the legitimate dress codes of American employers and educators with genuine persecution of religious minorities is offensive.

constitution

More stories about Constitution
Why America needs laws against flag burning.
Feature: Flags
The US Constitution - past its sell-by date ?

More stories by
jsm

The Gay Tax
LNUX = FC?
Linux Linux Linux -- Part One -- Trying to Be a Hero
A Declaration of Independence for the Indebted States of America
Kill Yr Idols: Nelson Mandela
Open Letter to a Stripper
Milosevic Goes Free, Thanks to Godwin's Law!
Tax the Childless, Double Votes for Parents
Luv Yr Enemies -- Jesus Christ
Open Letter to the USA: Please Don't Drown Me
The Real Darwin Awards
Harnessing the Computational Power of Autism
'English Style Lovers', with jsm
Why the Bombings Mean That We Must Support My Politics
Kill Yr Idols - Donald Knuth
Linux Linux Linux Part Two - Crossing the Linux Fault Threshold
Teaching Astrology In Schools
Chip Hell -- the AMD story
We Licke Icke
Slashdot Subscriptions and VA Software -- what's going on?
Linux Zealot and Economics 101
A New Kind of Feminist Science
Here's the facts, kids. According to dictionary.com, a "religion" is a sincerely held set of beliefs, part of a tradition and a way of life. Wicca fails on all three counts.

Sincerely held beliefs:

They aren't. Here's the facts. "Wiccans", "Neopagans" and such like, tend to be young, American and university educated. University educated people don't usually believe in things which are, on the face of them, absolutely untrue. The creation myths, cosmogonies and rituals of all pagan religions are all ludicrous. Earth Mothers, naked magick, Crow Spirits -- any attempt to look deeply into the content of the hotchpotch of half-baked fairy stories and horror movie cliches which make up the average pagan's belief system comes up against a flat wall of incredulity pretty quickly. Nobody of even average intelligence could possibly actually believe any of this to be literally true. Therefore, by syllogism, the vast majority of so-called "Wiccans" are not sincere in what they claim to believe.

This point is important, so it bears analysis. Not only are the beliefs of Wiccans ridiculous to the point of risibility, they're also provably fabricated and internally inconsistent. The entire religion of Wicca was created out of whole cloth in 1952 by a British Civil Servant called Gerald Gardner. Therefore, for example, the First Church of Jesus Christ, Elvis are on a more solid footing than the Wiccans, given that Elvis is both older and more historically real than anything in Wicca. And, furthermore, every half-educated Wiccan knows that this is the case.

It gets better. When Gardner invented neopaganism, he just put it together from all the bits he liked from the Penguin Library of Mythology. So Wicca has bits of Northern Italian folklore, bits of the Magick of Aleister Crowley (mainly Jewish mysticism), bits of Greek elemental symbolism (Thales, 500BC) and the whole thing suffused with a miasma of "Celtic" imagery, referring to a gang of Austrian savages who ended up in Galicia, with no culture, only the most extremely dubious historical provenance and the most tenuous of connections to the people who walk round calling each other "Celts" today. Plus a load of ritual nudity which was very certainly never in the originals. It says something that Scientology and Wicca were invented at roughly the same time; while the American Hubbard came up with a money-making machine that has a proven record of effecting miracle narcotics addiction cures, the best the Brits could come up with was a Carry on Camping version of the Bacchanalia we all learn in third year Latin.

Not only that, but the main creed of the "neopagan" movement is "An it hurt none, do as you will", which plagiarises Crowley, smuggles a bit of Chaucerian Middle English into a supposedly pre-Christian tradition and directly contradicts the two things we know for certain about the actually existing pagans; a) that they had many ritual taboos, so they didn't think "do as you will" and b) that they didn't care about hurting people. It is no exaggeration to say that the main works of Celtic literature are almost entirely concerned with the subject of killing other people and stealing their cows. When they don't deal with the equally mystical and spiritual subject of getting drunk and waking up in a ditch.

A tradition

Put it this way. Nobody was brought up Wiccan. Nobody had their children named at a "blooding ceremony" straight after the "hand-fasting", nobody took their children to campfires instead of Sunday School and nobody sat up night after night teaching their little ones enough Chaucer to give them a hope of understanding what "an you hurt none" means. Or if they did, then the social services intervened pretty quickly and quite right too. Unlike the Christian, Jewish, Hindu and Muslim religions, there is nobody whose neopagan "beliefs" locate them in a long line of believers starting with their parents, and their parents' parents.

Of course there isn't. Simply to pose the possibility is to see it as ridiculous. People don't become Wiccans in order to carry on the beliefs of their parents. People become Wiccans in order to offend their parents, to try to extract some revenge on Mum and Dad for the terrible crime of having financially supported them for all of their fourteen years of life. There have never been and will never be any second-generation Wiccans, because there is simply no point in being a Wiccan if it isn't going to wind up Ma and Pa. The pagan "tradition" is the actual antithesis of a tradition. Which is why telling a Wiccan to stop wearing his severed rabbit head or his inverted pentagram is absolutely nothing like removing the cross from a Christian school or depriving a Jew of his Star of David. One of these things is to strip a human being of his identity, to remove the very essence of what is important about his humanity. The other is just to tell a silly little child (of whatever age) not to bare his bottom in public.

Way of Life

Wiccanism, like the organised simper which goes in the West by the name of "Buddhism", is a religion which, unusually, makes no practical demands whatever on its adherents. A Wiccan doesn't go to hell if they are stopped from making silly hand signs at the customers in McDonalds, in the way that a Muslim can sincerely believe himself to be in danger of if provision is not made for him to make Umrah. Suited to the intellectually flabby, scruffy, lazy slacker teenagers who believe in it, Wicca is not a religion which gives a code by which to live one's life. It has no observances, fasts or obligations to charity. All it is, is a style of dress, a calculated giving of offense to Christians, and the occasional excuse for a booze-up for people too dull or inhibited to be able to open a bottle of whisky without turning it into a piece of amateurish performance art. That's not a religion. It's a pose. And, of course, and not coincidentally, an excuse to ensure that there's no black people invited to your fraternity parties because they're not "Celtic" enough.


So then, are we really, seriously, meant to believe that this half-dignified collection of Santa Claus myths is to be given the same status as the great religions of the world? Wicca isn't important to anybody. Nobody would ever lay down their life for Wicca; very few would sacrifice their Abercrombie & Fitch trenchcoats for the cause of the Goddess. Anyone looking at the site of a Wiccan party the morning after knows that the genuine regard which the neopagans have for the earth doesn't even stretch to picking up their own beer cans and condoms. So when an employer, or a teacher, tells a scruffy teenager to clean up their act, it's an injustice of the scale of telling a punk to wash their hair, not the first step to a pogrom. And the American Civil Liberties Union really ought to find something better to do with their time than to pretend that anything else is the case.


Impossible argument. (none / 0) (#2)
by JoePain on Mon Mar 18th, 2002 at 07:32:00 PM PST
"Here's the facts, kids. According to dictionary.com, a "religion" is a sincerely held set of beliefs, part of a tradition and a way of life. Wicca fails on all three counts."

These are all very subjective. I am not sure that you can prove that wiccans are or are not any of these without getting inside their heads. It does not matter how much babble you write after these 'facts'.


you act like a nong. (none / 0) (#3)
by nathan on Mon Mar 18th, 2002 at 07:41:32 PM PST
That is a criticism. "The issue is subjective" is not. Why don't you show me a few real-world issues that aren't subjective?

Nathan
--
Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

Your a big-fat-poopy-head. (none / 0) (#5)
by JoePain on Mon Mar 18th, 2002 at 08:01:47 PM PST
Are you claiming that all science is subjective? That is a good point, but i dont see how it helps his or your case any. Seems if this is true (as you imply) then this whole web site is pretty stupid aint it? Why, then it is all just meaningless words aint it? I AGREE. your still a poopy-head though.


Re: Your a big-fat-poopy-head. (none / 0) (#7)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Mar 18th, 2002 at 08:18:29 PM PST
Adequacy.org specializes in meaninglessness. Someone told me once that they agreed with an Adequacy.org article, but after we analyzed it together it was concluded that the article was truely meaningless, and just a, `this is how you COULD see it' kind of thing.

I've said it a million times, Adequacy.org is truely a liberal site; MOCKING the practice of conservatism.

I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't realize this.


meaninglessness (5.00 / 1) (#9)
by jazz diva on Mon Mar 18th, 2002 at 09:20:45 PM PST
I LOVE meaninglessness! I love this site. I just wasted 2 hours of hy life... i think, but who is keeping track anyway?...going over a bunch of comments and stuff on this site and it is crazy and fun. i was supposed to be prepping for a presentation on hackers that i am supposed to give in my Information Technology class on Friday. So if anyone reading has a brilliant idea of what I can talk about for a half an hour, Email me. Anything as wild and meaningless as I have been reading will go over well with my classmates.
jazz-diva-in-my-own-mind

You've come to the right place! (5.00 / 1) (#10)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Mar 18th, 2002 at 09:39:50 PM PST
For biting, incisive criticism of the "hax0r" lifestyle, you should start here and read your way through these.


 
What? (none / 0) (#12)
by tkatchev on Mon Mar 18th, 2002 at 10:32:33 PM PST
Did you fall down from the moon just yesterday, or something?

The real world doesn't work by "proving" things "rationally"[1]. The real world works by brute force and charismatic ad-hominem. You may not like it, but it's just a law of nature; you might as well rail against the injustice of gravitation.

[1] Sorry if your liberalist university professor mislead you otherwise. That should teach you to trust university professors.


--
Peace and much love...




Yes but the sky slowed him. (none / 0) (#14)
by jvance on Mon Mar 18th, 2002 at 10:57:53 PM PST
Did you fall down from the moon just yesterday, or something?

For an anti-liberalist, you sure are into their mythology.
--
Adequacy has turned into a cesspool consisting of ... blubbering, superstitious fools arguing with smug, pseudointellectual assholes. -AR

The sky? (3.00 / 2) (#17)
by because it isnt on Tue Mar 19th, 2002 at 03:45:28 AM PST
Oh dear.
adequacy.org -- because it isn't

 
Re: What? (none / 0) (#15)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Mar 19th, 2002 at 03:23:45 AM PST
This a conservative view of `how the world works.' You have to admit, it's amazing how much people can write without saying anything at all. :)

This site fullfills its function perfectly. ;)


I think... (none / 0) (#99)
by derek3000 on Thu Mar 21st, 2002 at 02:02:36 PM PST
he made the point quite clearly and it was valid. Why don't you think he said anything of value?

This a conservative view of `how the world works.'

And the 'liberal' view is better? How?


----------------
"Feel me when I bring it!" --Gay Jamie

 
Katchep is the UBERMAN! (none / 0) (#71)
by JoePain on Wed Mar 20th, 2002 at 03:03:04 PM PST
That explains everything.... He is posing as a conservative but he really is a nazi!!!!


 
Some would disagree STRONGLY about (1.00 / 1) (#88)
by JoePain on Thu Mar 21st, 2002 at 07:15:41 AM PST
your interpretation of reality. Although the news and popular propaganist culture makes an attempt to point a finger at individuals in an attempt to explain their over simplified view of reality, the reality of the situation is quite different. The most common refutation of your argument is the case of Adolf Hitler. If GERMANY hadn't been raped by the disgusting french imperialists after WW1, then Hitler would have remained a starving artist. Another example is the USSR and Stalin. If the west hadn't made every attempt to contain communism, Stalin wouldn't have been able to declare a state of emergency and get initial support for his plan. There are more, but clearly you should be able to grasp that EVENTS not PEOPLE create reality. 'Will to Power' is a nice theory, but it only goes so far.


Urm... (none / 0) (#160)
by hauntedattics on Sat Mar 30th, 2002 at 08:35:29 AM PST
clearly you should be able to grasp that EVENTS not PEOPLE create reality.

Um, so who or what brings about these events? Woodland fairies? Papa Legba? Fate?

I find your interpretation of interwar and post-war European history fascinating, by the way. Please continue your revisionist ravings for the enlightenment (and entertainment) of Adequacy readers.




 
Unsuitable Content (none / 0) (#4)
by NoahVale on Mon Mar 18th, 2002 at 07:59:03 PM PST
Hey, I tried to read this article.
But I kept getting this message that said, "Unsuitable Content - Vilification".

It must have been something bad.

Can you refrain from posting this kind of material on Adequacy.org, because I don't want to get in trouble off my ISP or the Australian government.


I suggest... (none / 0) (#11)
by tkatchev on Mon Mar 18th, 2002 at 10:28:39 PM PST
...that you move to a place that doesn't espouse Liberalist Fascism as a dominating ideology.


--
Peace and much love...




 
Re: Unsuitable Content (none / 0) (#16)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Mar 19th, 2002 at 03:39:25 AM PST
Aw! It seems as though my last reply to this was deleted (or hidden). I find it highly ironic since it concerned the very thing the comment itself addressed!

This is exactly what happens when you have people wanting to control what everyone says!

Conservatives want to control, liberals want to equalize. This is why you must love this site. It truely shows the kind of thing you have to deal with concerning conservatism.


 
Offensive content (none / 0) (#44)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Mar 19th, 2002 at 07:27:47 PM PST
I, as a Wiccan, found the "article" VERY offensive. To say that my religion is NOT a religion is completely unfounded. All of the so called "facts" posted as proof of this were merely snippets of some half done research, used to serve the author's own biased and hateful prejudices.

I do NOT do naked magick. I don't have "Wiccan parties". No, Wicca does not demand any tithes. So what? Wiccans (true Wiccans) are in general very ecologiscally minded. I haven't met a "litterbug" Wiccan yet.

As far as the follow up post, about a "teenager who was into Wicca and decided to invoke African deities into her livingroom" ... yes there are some misinformed people jumping into the Craft, based on something they saw in a movie or tv show that "looked cool". Do I wear black? Do I make "offensive hand gestures to the people at McDonalds"? Do I wear severed rabbit heads? Do I wear jewelry that is an "inverted pentagram"? NO. I am a loving, college educated (oh DARN, the author got THAT one right, guess they are right about the whole thing!), 24 year old mother of two.

Yes, I believe in fairies. Yes, I celebrate Samhain (or as you so-called Christians would delude yourselves into celebrating with no qualms, HALLOWEEN). Does this involve ritualistically killing animals, or shedding blood at all? No. I don't even drink WINE when I worship. As someone who was raised Christian, and got fed up with the "now God is loving, but here in the rest of the Bible he is punishing someone for some minor transgressions" teachings, I am aware that some groups of Christians drink wine at their Sunday worship services. Do I condemn all of Christianity for what I perceive as some hypocritical teachings, and for some "ridiculous" religious traditions? No.

Who are YOU to say what religion is "true" and what is "false"? If you call yourself a Christian, and celebrate Jesus' birth every December (when he wasn't born at that time, the Church just decided to have a Pagan celebration festival serve their own purposes to ease the conversion of the masses), then you just may be familiar with the Bible quote : "Judge not, lest ye be judged."

A Wiccan in practice, and not just a "fashion statement" ...


Re:Offensive Content (5.00 / 1) (#45)
by Slubberdegullion on Tue Mar 19th, 2002 at 07:35:34 PM PST
Yes, I believe in fairies.
I would argue with you, but you refute yourself better than I ever could.

Since you are a mother of two, perhaps you should be spending your time cooking and cleaning, rather than posting about your imaginary cult.


 
fairies? (5.00 / 1) (#46)
by nathan on Tue Mar 19th, 2002 at 08:25:33 PM PST
Don't I know you from somewhere?

Nathan
--
Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

 
Well, I'm a fairy. (none / 0) (#47)
by jvance on Tue Mar 19th, 2002 at 10:40:12 PM PST
My name is Nuff. Fair enough?
--
Adequacy has turned into a cesspool consisting of ... blubbering, superstitious fools arguing with smug, pseudointellectual assholes. -AR

 
Halloween/Samhain (none / 0) (#52)
by Yossarian on Wed Mar 20th, 2002 at 02:47:00 AM PST
...or as you so-called Christians would delude yourselves into celebrating with no qualms, HALLOWEEN...

Christians, by definition, do not celebrate Halloween. As you have pointed out yourself, it is a pagan festival of heathen gods, dedicated to debauchery, commercialism and excess of the worst kind.

For someone complaining about Christian ignorance of Wiccan practices, you seem to lack a basic knowledge of Christianity yourself...


 
"True" Wiccans (none / 0) (#78)
by The dev0 on Wed Mar 20th, 2002 at 09:49:49 PM PST
Isn't that a contradiction in terms? It sounds very much like you decided to become wiccan to upset Mummy and Daddy, just like stated in the article. I think you'll also find the author's statements about the history of the wiccan movement are alot more accurate and can be easily proven, unlike the garbage wiccans spout as the 'history' of their false beliefs. Your comment about "Wiccans (true Wiccans) are in general very ecologiscally minded" scratches at the surface of truth, and that is that most so-called wiccans are greenie liberalists who want to wear a sign to identify them as someone different from the norm. "oh, i'm a white, middle classed, 20-something who needs to feel individual. I'm absolutely identical in every way to everybody else I know, but at least if I subscribe to a belief system that isn't as mainstream as Christianity I can appear to be different".

Last thing, you ask "Do I condemn all of Christianity for what I perceive as some hypocritical teachings, and for some "ridiculous" religious traditions?" and then proceed to do just that. Maybe you should have spent your time at college doing a real subject, not studying drama.


Never fight naked, unless you're in prison...

 
Sister will do the best she can (3.00 / 2) (#8)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Mar 18th, 2002 at 09:02:31 PM PST
<P><em>Fay ce que voudras</em> from Rabelais is the special provenance of that which you seek.

<p>I invite you to consider what would happen if the chthonic forces could not be raised in case of a celestial invasion.

<P>


 
My Dictionary... (none / 0) (#13)
by Akumu on Mon Mar 18th, 2002 at 10:33:04 PM PST
Defines religion as "the service and worship of God or the supernatural." That's Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary Deluxe Edition, by the way.

Both service and worship can be covered by Wiccan rituals. Looks like something a bit more substantial than one dictionary's definition is needed to prove Wicca isn't a religion.

-akumu-


Two can play the dictionary game (none / 0) (#18)
by Yossarian on Tue Mar 19th, 2002 at 04:13:14 AM PST
cult n.
1. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false...
...
4. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.

Why should we allow these Wiccan cultists to abuse the religious freedoms granted by our constitution?


Yes indeed they can, and you both lose. (5.00 / 1) (#19)
by dmg on Tue Mar 19th, 2002 at 05:21:07 AM PST
Any dictionary based argument about the English language must of necessity refer to the canonical Dictionary of the English language, produced IN ENGLAND by English speakers as opposed to some inferior American knock-off.

time to give a Newtonian demonstration - of a bullet, its mass and its acceleration.
-- MC Hawking

I would have cited the OED... (none / 0) (#20)
by Yossarian on Tue Mar 19th, 2002 at 05:40:06 AM PST
...but it is unfortunately a subscription service. Personally, I have no problem with paying for access to a quality site like the OED. However, if I had posted a link to a definition on a pay site, it would undoubtedly have led to wails of indignation from the infantile snivelling "free" software bigots who regrettably seem to infest this site.


They are a small but vocal MINORITY (none / 0) (#23)
by dmg on Tue Mar 19th, 2002 at 06:34:42 AM PST
if I had posted a link to a definition on a pay site, it would undoubtedly have led to wails of indignation from the infantile snivelling "free" software bigots who regrettably seem to infest this site.

We do not care about whinging from 'free software' bigots. The editors here simply delete their worthless comments. Adequacy has no problem with links to premium services. Indeed, many adequacy editors subscribe to several of these Lexis/Nexis, Reuters financials, Associated Press newswire, to name but a few. Let me make it perfectly clear: adequacy.org has no problem with the business model of selling a product rather than giving it away for free. So feel free to link to paysites, subscriptions services etc etc. Its all the same to us, since we have fairly deep pockets and are probably already subscribed to anything you cared to link to.

time to give a Newtonian demonstration - of a bullet, its mass and its acceleration.
-- MC Hawking

 
Religion requires a revelation, or supernatural (none / 0) (#69)
by Adam Rightmann on Wed Mar 20th, 2002 at 01:30:57 PM PST
manifestation. Did Moses make up God's communications just to impress a few callow young fleshpots?

This Wiccanism looks to be the invention of an English Eccentric who read a little mythology, and is no more a real religion than Scientology or Jedism.


A. Rightmann

I am not so sure (none / 0) (#101)
by JoePain on Thu Mar 21st, 2002 at 03:21:34 PM PST
Since the events surrounding Moses's communications had no witnesses then or now except Moses, (like all other revelations) we can't use this requirement for establishing religions. (At least in any meaningful way) Doing so would abolish all religions.

That being said, who is to say that modern wiccans don't experience revelations? Not that it would matter because if one did and brought it to the attention of the world then the individual would be committed or more likely scoffed.



 
They eventually bring damage upon themselves... (3.00 / 2) (#21)
by em on Tue Mar 19th, 2002 at 06:04:36 AM PST
... because of their brazen arrogance at dealing with beings more powerful than themselves.

Case in point. A girl I had once in one of my classes was into Wicca. I am sorry to use these chauvinistic descriptions, but she was rather, um, loose, and essentially exploited the "religion" as a justification for her not-so-commendable morals. She was also very much into "multiculturalism" and "world music" (a.k.a. "synth pop with samples from unremunarated third world peasants that never consented to their work being used commercially").

So, she suddenly takes an interest in "African Goddesses", and decides, based on readings of fanciful manuals with plainly false information on Haitian Vodou, that she is going to set up a little altar in her room for Erzulie Freda, which she orders from the web.

Ok. First of all, she didn't even know that Papa Legba exists, or that no contact is possible with the lwa without him being on the deal, but much less than he gets really pissed at any such attempt. Also, Freda is a really demanding lwa; you certainly will insult her if you simply buy a premade altar. No, no, you have to make the altar yourself, the lwa can't be bought, you have to serve them.

As a result, Legba and Freda now hate this girl. She flunked out of college, got pregnant at a Wicca party, no clue who the father is, her parents died (she is an only child), had an abortion (which only pissed off the lwa further). Desperate, she turned to prostitution, but found that with Freda actively messing with her sex appeal, she couldn't get clients. Now she is just an orphan homeless in the streets, at age 22.

The lesson is simple. The Walmart approach to religion embodied by Wicca will simply bring you harm. And above all, do not invite random African deities into your living room. They are very demanding, and outright nasty if not served in the appropriate manner.
--em
Associate Editor, Adequacy.org


broken link (none / 0) (#22)
by em on Tue Mar 19th, 2002 at 06:06:28 AM PST
Altars for Erzulie Freda on sale on the web. I recommend you do not buy one if you value your love life.
--em
Associate Editor, Adequacy.org


 
Thank You For Posting, Everybody (none / 0) (#61)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed Mar 20th, 2002 at 10:13:52 AM PST
Ok, here it is. I just wanted to thank the pagans and the others that posted here for giving me something to laugh my morning away at. You are all very entertaining. I am a pagan, myself. I love being a pagan. Call me what you like. I don't really care. I just think it's pretty funny that all you guys are sitting around getting all worked up over an article on an internet site. Yeah, I found the article pretty ridiculous, I'll admit. But ya know, I don't care enough to try and argue. I will say this, though. I appreciated reading each and every post for what it was. Some made me angry, and some made me laugh. Anyway, who are these people and what qualifications do they have to tell pagans that our beliefs are insubstantial? And what qualifies you as pagans to tell them they're wrong in what they believe? We have a freedom of religion here in America, and if I went out and decided to worship my bag of potato chips, who has the authority to tell me I can't? Not a single person. So keep on posting, cause I'm having a GREAT time. Much love to all of you!


so you're saying (none / 0) (#64)
by nathan on Wed Mar 20th, 2002 at 10:59:29 AM PST
That there's no point discussing anything, and it is not possible to criticise anything?

Nathan
--
Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

nah (none / 0) (#70)
by DG on Wed Mar 20th, 2002 at 02:52:42 PM PST
i think he means the fact that you belittle his beliefs does very little to make him change them, so basicly you can keep bashing them, till your fingers fall off
© 2002, DG. You may not reproduce this material, in whole or in part, without written permission of the owner.

isn't that the same thing? n/t (none / 0) (#72)
by nathan on Wed Mar 20th, 2002 at 03:07:56 PM PST

--
Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

 
Yeah, that's about right... (none / 0) (#85)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Mar 21st, 2002 at 04:43:38 AM PST
That's pretty much my point. Keep on bashing. I don't really care much about it. But it's fun to read. Most religions are based on teachings of peace and love. Bashing is neither peaceful, nor loving, and so I don't think even YOUR god would approve of such behavior. Well, unless you happen to be a Satanist, in which case, I think that would be the only exception. So say what you will if it makes you feel better. Hope you're paid up on your Karma. Oh, and by the way, I'm a SHE, not a HE.


religion... (5.00 / 1) (#96)
by nathan on Thu Mar 21st, 2002 at 11:11:30 AM PST
Religion may be about love, but that's not the vacuous feel-good statement that you seem to think it is.

Christianity and Paganism are fundamentally opposed, because Pagan worship of the flesh and humanisation of God was the basis for the unfathomable horrors of the ancient world. Today, we do kill and destroy, but no one in the modern world can bring the same indifference to it that we would have seen in a Roman lord's face while having a slave beaten - or tortured, or literally torn to pieces for an entertainment at dinner. We do evil, but not with the cold ease that Carthage showed when it sacrificed 5,000 children to Baal for victory in the Second Punic War.

Christianity arose among slaves because it taught that each person was of transcendental value, that each person was equally beloved of the Lord of the Universe, to whom the earth and all it kingdoms were as a footstool. Christianity demands of us that we strive ceaselessly toward our own salvation and the betterment of the world. I know that many Christians ignore that - but don't let a cartoon version of Christianity conceal the many good things done by Christians of all denominations the world over. Will we see the same thing come out of Wicca?

Nathan
--
Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

Ok then... (none / 0) (#106)
by Anonymous Reader on Sat Mar 23rd, 2002 at 10:57:34 AM PST
I never said pagans were perfect. That has been proven by the ones that have participated in the bashing by bashing back. And I never said that Christians were bad. I have many Christian friends. Each of us as humans were given free will, and in many cases, this free will has been used throughout history for injustices disguised with the name of God. There's nothing wrong with Christianity itself. The idea is beautiful. Kinda like Communism. What a wonderful idea, but like all utopian concepts, even Democracy, as perfect as the idea is, the manifestation always contains within it some sort of fundamentalist corruption. Fundamentalists of ANY kind can be dangerous. Whether Democratic, or Communist. Whether Christian or Pagan. So it's not the Christians, the Jews, the Pagans, the African Americans, the Communists, or the Democrats or Republicans. It is the flaws in singular people and their views that bring on such atrocities. There is no such thing as killing in the name of God. God expressly told everybody through the Bible NOT to kill. Ever. In Wicca and most Pagan and earth-based religions, we are taught, "An ye harm none, do as ye will". That basically means, no killing or interfering with other people's free will. There are people in all religions and faiths that don't follow that rule, and it's those people that make the rest of us look bad. So whatever historical killings you want to reference are fine, but leave the gods out of it. They want no part in senseless murder. The God(s) never told Hitler to burn Jewish people. Never told Elizabeth Bathory to kill virgin women and bathe in their blood. And never told the terrorists to crash planes into the WTC towers. There are many wonderful things about all religions. And each has it's own gift to our world. The important thing is to keep our minds open and informed enough not to think our opinions are the only ones with merit. The world is full of wonderful ideas, and wonderful, moral people from all paths. So walk your path, and travel with the love and light of the universe in your heart always. Blessed be.


in other words: (none / 0) (#107)
by nathan on Sat Mar 23rd, 2002 at 12:24:59 PM PST
Just do what feels right and be a nice person.

I don't buy it at all. I think your vision of religion is extremely self-serving; after all, it puts you pretty high above all the other idiots in the world who think religion is fighting over. I think that it is unscientific without offering a criticism of science. I think it is touchy-feely, content-free self-love.

You can throw up your hands at this point and decide that I'm not worth bothering with. I shouldn't be surprised. But I hope you answer, because I think a rigorous criticism of religious belief and its motivations will do you a lot of good.

Nathan

PS - Am I the only person who hears 'blessed be' as both insufferably pretentious and gramatically ambiguous?
--
Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

Rebuttal (none / 0) (#108)
by Anonymous Reader on Sun Mar 24th, 2002 at 08:26:10 AM PST
Actually, it's just the opposite, dear. My path requires me to take responsibility for myself and my own actions and the consequences of those actions. What goes around comes around, so be careful what you say and do. This is the meaning of "An ye harm none, do as ye will." It's the golden rule rewritten. Unscientific is definitely not a word I'd use to describe it either. There are many scientific views incorporated into this path. The cycles of the moon, sun, and stars influence when, where and how our religion is practiced due to the inevitable influence these heavenly bodies have on our earth and our lives. In order for your statement on scientific criticism to have the merit you put to it in proving that my path is not a religion, may I bring to your attention the conflict in the scientific theories of evolution and the Big Bang theory and the Christian belief of how the universe was created. If what you're saying is true that a religion isn't a religion that does not have the support of science, would this also apply to Christianity? Religion is a matter of faith. Faith requires no science. As for being "touchy-feely content-free self-love", I must again disagree. We celebrate life. Not just our own, but life of the earth, the life force in general. This is not a self-love. It is an all inclusive unconditional love. You are entitled to your opinion, and I appreciate you expressing yourself. I am simply offering you a different perspective.


this is unproductive. (none / 0) (#109)
by nathan on Sun Mar 24th, 2002 at 12:19:06 PM PST
You keep misreading me. Please, pay attention. I wrote:
I think that [wicca] is unscientific without offering a criticism of science.
Your response to that was that Christianity isn't scientific either, but wicca does use astronomical calculations to organize its rituals. With respect, this doesn't address my point at all.

Show me how wicca offers a philosophically coherent criticism of scientific materialism of naturalism. Show me anything philosophically rigorous than any wiccan has ever come up with! Show me the wiccan missions out feeding the poor or rescuing cave children in Rumania. Some wiccans claim to be taking responsibility, but it seems to me most are just burning smelly herbs and gazing at their own navels.


--
Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

Q&A (none / 0) (#112)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Mar 25th, 2002 at 11:26:16 AM PST
What basis do you have for your argument that Wicca offers no "philosophically coherent criticism of scientific materialism of naturalism"? What specifically are you asking for? As for the part about Wiccans doing their part in improving the condition of the world in which we live, many pagans of all paths are not openly pagan. You must remember that we live in a world where up until recent decades, it was dangerous just not being a white male. In the last decade or so, the pagans have been coming out just as the homosexual community has in the past years. Still, in this society, it's much safer to confess to being gay than to confess to being a pagan. Therefore, there are MANY pagans that do wonderful humanitarian things without the admission of their religious path for fear of religious persecution. Yes, we live in a country where we have the freedom to choose our religion, but sadly, there are people that will still try and run you out of town for not being of an "accepted" faith. So, there are many pagans out there doing their part, but needn't disclose their religious beliefs in order to be a giving and charitable person. As far as staring at the navel, I don't know anyone who does that and I'm interested in knowing where you're acquiring your information.


don't flatter yourself. (5.00 / 1) (#113)
by nathan on Mon Mar 25th, 2002 at 07:52:58 PM PST
Still, in this society, it's much safer to confess to being gay than to confess to being a pagan.

Not bloody likely.

Get off the cross and get over yourself. Wicca is not a respectable or respected intellectual or spiritual movement. There is no corpus of wiccan knowledge, no wiccan praxis, no wiccan philosophy. Wicca offers me nothing to replace Christianity or naturalism except wacky platitudes about energy and horned gods that can't be held to any particular meaning. What exactly is a wiccan doing when she casts a spell? Does it work or does it not?

From what I've seen, wiccan ethics don't go any deeper than a raver's PLUR. I'm sorry, everything about wicca appears totally bourgeois, boutique, inane, white, intellectually flaccid, and vacuous. Give me something solid to criticise.

Nathan
--
Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

My thoughts!!!!!!! (none / 0) (#114)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Mar 26th, 2002 at 08:14:23 AM PST
My name is David. I have read your views on what you believe and how you believe them, but where do you get the right to say anything about what someone else wants practice. Are you GOD? I'll go ahead and answer for you, NO!!! Well, I'm not Pegan, nor am I Christian, nor am I wiccan, but I follow the Native American believes, and traditions. I follow what is in my blood, not what the majority of society follows, I follow my own heart and do what I feel is right without hurting anyone around me nor myself. You speak so much, as though you know the answers to everyones questions, as though you know the answers to the Universe. Well I don't think you do. I belief in the circle of life, the circle is the power in life, the neverending circle. From childhood to childhood. You say your pegan, or Christian, hell I don't know what you are. You express no views on any certain religion or certain faith, so what gives you the right to put others down for exploring something that may bring them piece and harmony in their life. No, I can't say that I agree with the wiccan ways, but that doesn't concern me, it isn't my faith. You want to talk about bloodshed, then what about the Natives. Brutely massacred, and their homes and land taken away, and for what? Because the white man out numbered and forced them from their home. The white man wanted the land, so why let the Natives keep the land, why not just be selfish and rob someone of their land, and their traditions. Cherokees, which is what is in my blood, walked the Trail of Tears, because Andrew Jackson vetoed a bill and took away their land, and forced them to go elsewhere. The Cherokees did this, and lost many lives doing so, and all because the so called Christians wanted more than what they have. About trying this, try living with others in piece and harmony, try living off of what the earth offers us. Would you starve today if there wasn't a computer in your face or a T.V. to feel your mind? What would you do if modern technology was taken away tomorrow? I don't know any religion that is taught to condemn others for their believes. I belief that you must respect others believes, and not condemn someone for what they belief, but also demand respect for what I belief as well. Well, you aren't respecting my believes or anyone else's believes here, so why should I respect yours? I just wanted to let you know that I respect all human life, and all life here on earth, and maybe you should try and do the same. Take a moment in your day to appreciate the things around you, nature in it's self. Give thanks to the animals that give their lives so that you can continue with your life. Don't take these things for granted, cause at the end you will be judged, not by me nor no one else here but by a greater power that it seems you know very little about. So take this day to cherish and honor the gifts you have in your life and stop condemning others for their believes. They will be dealt with and judged the same as you, but never put someone down for haveing faith in something. Faith is life itself. If you have anything you would like to say, then you are free to speak your mind of your thoughts, but keep in mind that it is your opinion.

May life grant you the blessings you deserve,
David


 
Before we go on... (none / 0) (#115)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Mar 26th, 2002 at 08:14:50 AM PST
"Give me something solid to criticize." So far, you've based your opinion on the following: "I think it is touchy-feely, content-free self-love", and "it seems to me most are just burning smelly herbs and gazing at their own navels". Tell me, are these facts, or opinion? What historically, philisophically, or scientifically sound information do you have to back up your claims that "Wicca is not a respectable or respected intellectual or spiritual movement. There is no corpus of Wiccan knowledge, no wiccan praxis, no wiccan philosophy. Wicca offers me nothing to replace Christianity or naturalism except wacky platitudes about energy and horned gods that can't be held to any particular meaning"? And just to gain a little more understanding of your background, may I ask which religion you follow?


 
Nathan... (none / 0) (#116)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Mar 26th, 2002 at 08:25:23 AM PST
You're making yourself look like a big ol' jerk here, buddy, and I'm blessed that you aren't my neighbor, because I'd probably let my dog poop in your yard, and I wouldn't clean it up, either, so HA!


 
Nathan's thread (none / 0) (#119)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Mar 26th, 2002 at 11:45:36 AM PST
Nathan,

You are arguing with no back up. It seems that you know nothing about the religion of Wicca. (nothing accurate, anyway) And furthermore, you are ignorant for being so overly concerned with dogma that you fail to see what this means of spirituality is all about. Wicca may not be a religion with a solid, organized foundation; but to many Wiccans, this is the beauty of it. Dogma often clouds the true reason for religion in the first place - to connect with the Divine, and to help make this World a better place. The bottom line is this - call God whatever name you want, give God any face you want, it doesn't change what God is. And God just IS. Who are you to tell anyone that their version of God or method of connecting with the Divine is not valid? All paths are valid. Anyone who says otherwise is completely missing the point. So go ahead and use your big words to try to belittle others' beliefs. The only one you are making a fool of is yourself.



pay attention, kid. (5.00 / 1) (#122)
by nathan on Wed Mar 27th, 2002 at 06:35:02 AM PST
This is precisely the problem:

you are ignorant for being so overly concerned with dogma that you fail to see what this means of spirituality is all about.

I'm sorry, this just doesn't wash. You seem to think that any spirituality is good spirituality; that 'spirituality' means communing with the cosmos however you want, that 'connecting to the Divine' is trivially easy.

This is just inane. It's awfully convenient to espouse this viewpoint, because you can 'connect to the Divine' without really asking anything of yourself. Consider the suffering of Donne. Donne wrote that he 'laboured to admit [God], but oh, to no end;' he wrote that 'connecting to the Divine' was the hardest thing imaginable. It demanded of him total surrender, beyond his powers. It demanded that he relinquish all his evil thoughts, actions, and tendencies, even in the privacy of his own heart. It demanded of him that he cease to live for his own gratification.

Donne calls on God, and there's no easy way to say this, to rape him. He begs God to break the resistance in his heart that he himself never could break. He cries that he wants to love God as God must be loved, but that he can't do it.

Does this make any sense, or are you so addled by liberalism that Donne's spiritual crisis just seems stupid? Religion, if it is genuine, is not merely a theory of knowledge, a body of magical beliefs, or a soft, therapeutic self-esteem boost. It is confrontation with that which transcends all of our understandings, hypocrisies, failures, weaknesses, and selfish desires.

Nathan
--
Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

I apologize for over-simplification... (5.00 / 1) (#124)
by because it isnt on Wed Mar 27th, 2002 at 07:32:16 AM PST
Consider the suffering of Donne.

...but it sounds to me like you're advocating the martyr's argument, that submitting to needless suffering is somehow necessary to validate your religious beliefs.

This sails dangerously close to the Lunixists' argument that using an insufferably poor operating system makes their belief in Open Sores all the more valid.
adequacy.org -- because it isn't

 
Your attitude... (none / 0) (#125)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed Mar 27th, 2002 at 07:56:07 AM PST
Please stop it with the insults. I have read every one of your posts on this page, and in every single one, you've included some sort of snippy remark or outright insult to someone. Have a little decency. And furthermore, stop bashing other people's beliefs. It is your type of attitude that perpetuates religious intolerance, and therefore you can be seen as no better than the terrorists who committed the WTC and pentagon atrocities "in the name of Allah". If it weren't for attitudes like your own, this world would be a much more pleasant place to live. Take a good look at yourself, and instead of asking what good the Wiccans are doing to feed the children in Rumania, ask yourself how YOU as an individual are helping create a safe and tolerant place for these children to live. Attitudes like yours cause ethnic cleansing. Attitudes like yours helped create and maintain the KKK. Attitudes like yours killed thousands upon thousands of innocent Jewish people. Attitudes like yours forced Native Americans from their homes. Millions of innocent lives throughout history have been lost because of attitudes like yours. Jesus Christ was crucified because of attitudes like yours. Take a good look at yourself. You should be ashamed. DO something to help end all the bloodshed and misery and change your attitude.


you rule! (none / 0) (#127)
by nathan on Wed Mar 27th, 2002 at 09:25:11 AM PST
My dear AR, you are the funnest person ever!

Please stop it with the insults...[a]ttitudes like yours helped create and maintain the KKK.

Please post more!

By the way, I am an anti-racism activist. Please don't be rude to me. I am too delicate to take it.

Nathan
--
Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

 
Nathan (none / 0) (#126)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed Mar 27th, 2002 at 08:00:53 AM PST
"Does this make any sense, or are you so addled by liberalism that Donne's spiritual crisis just seems stupid? Religion, if it is genuine, is not merely a theory of knowledge, a body of magical beliefs, or a soft, therapeutic self-esteem boost. It is confrontation with that which transcends all of our understandings, hypocrisies, failures, weaknesses, and selfish desires."

Donne's "spiritual crisis", as you call it, does not seem stupid to me. Who am I to judge that? There is no way for us to know what he felt - even through words. My spiritual experience and yours would be completely different even if we followed the same "religion". And religion can be all of those things you mentioned. Religion is personal; it's about your personal relationship with the Divine. There is no wrong way to do it. What works for you might not work for me. And we have no right to tell each other that the way we do it is the only right way, or that each other's beliefs are wrong or invalid.
You are right about it transcending our understanding of reality. You are right that it isn't easy. To know the Divine, you must first know yourself. You must face Truth. Not all of our souls are the same; we do not have the same needs.
I never said that it was easy or trivial, or that it took no effort or sacrifice.
And not all Wiccans use magick for personal gain. The ability to manipulate energy to bring about a certain positive outcome, such as healing or peace, is to be treated with responsibility. And, the ability to tap into those Divine Earth and Human energies must be developed.
Even though there may be a few people who call themselves Wiccan (or any other religion, for that matter) might use it for their own selfish agenda, whether that's shock value or greed, those people do not reflect the entire Wiccan community. It's pretty rude to make a general assumtion about an entire religion based on the actions of a few people who misunderstand the religion themselves.

--AC



Glad to hear it (5.00 / 1) (#133)
by jvance on Wed Mar 27th, 2002 at 02:14:51 PM PST
Religion is personal; it's about your personal relationship with the Divine. There is no wrong way to do it.

My personal ritual for connecting to the Divine involves raping little boys. My conscience was starting to bother me, but you've assuaged all of my concerns.

Thanks. By the way, do you have any kids?
--
Adequacy has turned into a cesspool consisting of ... blubbering, superstitious fools arguing with smug, pseudointellectual assholes. -AR